01) How did the Berlin Wall affect you?

In April 1984 I had been living 2 years close to the Berlin wall; I felt the need to do something against this boring wall. It was a sort of physical reaction against the pressure of the daily life near the Berlin wall. The back of my house at Mariannenplatz was five meters front of the wall. My house was the first squatted house on December the 4th, 1971. It was called the “Georg von Rauch house” dedicated to the demonstrator killed by the police, the same day. To paint the wall was absolutely forbidden, so the painters had to be quick, always painting with one eye, the other watching for soldiers. It was important not to paint alone, in isolated areas, or near the little doors of concrete integrated in the prefabricated segments. Here it was dangerous to paint the wall. I painted the wall until the end, and after its end the back of the wall: The East Side Gallery.

02) Were you living in Berlin when the wall came down?

Of course! I was the all night of November the 9th at “Checkpoint Charlie”, watching the craziness of the new situation in Berlin.

03) On which side of the wall?
It was on the West Side of course. I came in January 22nd 1982 to West Berlin. I never was in East Berlin until the fall of the wall. I came the first time to East Berlin on the 21st of November 1989 to paint the East wall of Potsdamer Platz. The same day Crosby Stills and Nash ahd a concert at brandenburger Tor.

04) What did the falling of the wall mean personally to you?
As the years went by, the paintings took on phenomenal proportions, which were rapidly recognized by the international arts community. The object was not to embellish the wall but to demystify it. My paintings became a symbol of new found freedom after the reunification of Germany and the end of the cold war. The wall was not just a painted concrete wall but a deadly machine, a sort of big crocodile ready to kill people at any time.

05) If you’re not from Berlin, what was the draw to this project?
At that time I was a young French man, who had been living 2 years close to the Berlin wall, felt the need to do something against this boring wall. It was a sort of physical reaction against the pressure of the daily life near the Berlin wall. The back of their house at Mariannenplatz was five meters front of the wall. This house was the first squatted house on December the 4th, 1971. It was called the “Georg von Rauch house” dedicated to the demonstrator killed by the police, the same day.

06) What is meaningful to you about the Berlin Wall?

The wall was technically transformed into a big canvas and me a clandestine painter. Because of the East German sentinels armed with machine guns it was necessary to paint fast. The sentinels guarded the wall night and day, standing inside watchtowers placed all around West-Berlin. Instinctively I chose simple figures, fast of execution.

07) What was it like to paint the Berlin Wall? 

The Berliners were initially surprised, then annoyed by this guy -after all a foreigner- who dared defying the interdicts and enter in direct relation with the killing machine. Then, quickly, they started to insult him, treat him as an abductor of the wall, a capitalist paid by the Government. “In vain I repeated that I was paid by no one, that I did not seek to embellish the killing machine, that I did nothing but react to its sadness, they would not understand. It is important to say too that much emotion was in the air surrounding the wall.” More that an hundred people had already died while trying to go over the wall. The atmosphere was violent, very heavy. In spite of the screams and insults, I went to the head of the painting, every day without respite, covering with his friends a distance of more than 4000 meters in five years.

08) What are the major motifs of your other work? 

The colours have eaten away the concrete segments like acid, trying to bore enormous holes through it so that the monster will fall down. Noir wanted to cover the wall with colours to wrap it up with paintings, to make it luminous to show it like a mutation in the city, mutation in the art and in the nature. In the no man’s land behind the wall lived hundred of rabbits.

09) Which was the meaningful that you would like to send to the public? 

It had to be cryptic or to speak plainly? What did you want to prevail? spontaneity or a more difficult sense to decode? This is an homage to the perpetual youth, every generation some young people comes suddenly and says that everything can be much quicker, much more beautiful than everything which have been done in the past.

10) What do you feel in face of this situation of deterioration?

The East Side Gallery is protected by the so called ”Memorial law”, but this law made to protect obtain the opposite for what it has be voted. It is so difficult to renovate its own pictures that nobody cares anymore to do anything. Passers-by need ten seconds to write their names on the paintings, and the painters need 2 weeks to obtain the permission to paint over those names made in ten seconds. It was a crazy situation. It is important to renovate the paintings as quick as the destruction. This was the feeling which has made me painting again and again during the eighties in Kreuzberg.

11) Your work is obviously very unique to you, in that from an outside point of view it is simple but extremely effective. Have you been inspired by anyone in particular when you start to paint in your own style?

During the “finissage” of my first exhibition in a Restaurant in Berlin, in January 1985, one Japanese man said to me after I asked him if he liked my paintings or not: “Yes but they are too complicated. Imagine someone who comes back from work. He looks at your paintings…and things: Too complicated.” 

I said to myself, this guy is right so I change my style after that day.

12) The one thing I would like to ask, when you first started to make your mark on the Berlin Wall, why did you choose to design it with your own work that you would maybe exhibit in a gallery, rather than political messages that I have seen so many of during my research?

Everything you do on the wall is immediately political. Even if you just piss on the wall, it is a political act. When I started to paint the Berlin wall in April 1984, the wall in Kreuzberg was just full of phrases already. Not at all like in New York but it was just written words without any style: One third of those messages was again the US Army, one third again the Turkish people, the last third part was some personal messages, I was here, I love you… Anyway the New York Hip-Hop Style was not my thing, so I started to paint my own style without trying to imitate anybody. Immediately I had some success. So I decided to continue.

13) Have you ever taken part in painting any other monuments in places other than Berlin?

I do not paint any monuments illegally. Since June 1983, when I start my career as an artist, I had constantly enough to do so I could live on my works. Why to paint the Eiffel Tower?

14) Living in Berlin, what did you notice was the main reaction of the public to the art on the Berlin wall? Was it supported, and perceived as a political outcry? Or was it merely seen as vandalism?

The wall was built, 5 meters beyond the official border, so the east-German soldiers were allowed to arrest any person standing near the wall. Because of this, to paint the wall was absolutely forbidden and dangerous. It was a political act to paint the wall. The painters had to be quick, always painting with one eye, the other watching for soldiers. It was important not to paint alone. From the very beginning of the murals of Thierry Noir and Christophe Bouchet, people ask immediately a lot of questions.

Even insults like “capitalist pigs, egoist, stupid foreigners”. It was important because of those reactions to explain and paint at the same time. The Berliners were initially surprised, then annoyed by this guy -after all a foreigner- who dared defying the interdicts and enter in direct relation with the killing machine. Then, quickly, they started to insult him, treat him as an abductor of the wall, a capitalist paid by the Government.

That’s how Noir and Bouchet realized that they had started something special, and to stop would bring one more question: “Why did you stop painting the Berlin wall?” The most frequent question was: “Why did they want to make the wall beautiful? Why did they want to ornament the Berlin wall?” They answered each time: “We are not trying to make the wall beautiful because in fact it’s absolutely impossible. 80 persons have being killed trying to jump over the Berlin wall, to escape to west-Berlin, so you can cover that wall with hundred of kilos of colors, it will stay the same.

One bloody monster, one old crocodile that from time to time wakes, eats somebody up, and falls again back to sleep until the next time”. The paintings on the Berlin wall always had an exceptional touch. It was always one extra emotion in the air which transformed every wall painting into a strong political act.

It is important to say too that much emotion was in the air surrounding the wall.” More that an hundred people had already died while trying to go over the wall. The atmosphere was violent, very heavy. In spite of the screams and insults, Noir went to the head of the painting, every day without respite, covering with his friends a distance of more than 5000 meters in five years.

This was an homage to the perpetual youth, every generation some young people comes suddenly and says that everything can be much quicker, much more beautiful than everything which have been done in the past. As David Bowie said in his song Heroes (1982):”You can be heroes, just for one day”.

15) You said that some people accused you for trying to make the wall beautiful because it is impossible to change a killer machine into a beautiful thing. A lot of conservative people here believe that graffiti is the same that vandalism. What do you think about this opinion?

You can not compare the Berlin Wall with a “normal wall” of a house in the street. I have painted the wall as a protest. I talked not about graffiti but kilometre-art. I have painted 5 kilometres of the Berlin Wall in nearly 6 years (1984-1990). I must admit that I would not be amused if somebody paints my car at night.

16) You started to paint in 1984. Had you ever painted walls before that? What kind of art did you used to do before you go to Berlin?

I never painted before I came to Berlin. I start my carrier in front of the wall. I never though one minute to make an exhibition with my paintings when I was in France. I remember at school the art teacher said to me I had no talent. At the very beginning I start to pretend to be a multitalented artist. So I could sing, play guitar and paint. After a while I have discovered that I could live of my paintings.

17) You moved to Berlin in 1982 attracted by David Bowie and Iggy Pop, who were living in West Berlin. What was the influence of these two artists on your paintings at that time?

In France I used to hear very often the David Bowie album “Heroes” and “Scary Monsters“ and as well the Iggy Pop album “Lust for Life”. At the same time was the German New Wave very strong in Berlin. I start to thing why everybody goes to berlin and not to my town Lyon where I was. So I decided to leave this town and to move on.

18) Many Berliners became depressive or insulted because of the wall; it was called the “Berlin’s Disease”. Did you feel something like that at that time?

The Berlin’s Disease was a sort of schizophrenic phenomena in West Berlin, caused because of the Wall. This disease was about somebody who never goes out of West-Berlin. Other persons never left their neighbourhood like in Kreuzberg. 2 blocks to go to the supermarket, two blocks to get the social money, one block to the video store… This was the world of those people. Years after years the same routine. It was very insane to live in West-Berlin at that time.

19) Why do Berliners want the wall back? 

I do not think they want the wall back. This is only a kind a nostalgia called “Ostalgie”. This is just the Nostalgia of the Old Eastern world. Everything was planed in the GDR. Easy living. Some people are missing this. It was always better before.

20) How do most Berliners feel about the wall? 

I think they care about the Berlin wall like they care about Christmas, just only one time a year during the official celebrations. The Berliners were initially surprised, then annoyed by this guy -after all a foreigner- who dared defying the interdicts and enter in direct relation with the killing machine. Then, quickly, they started to insult him, treat him as an abductor of the wall, a capitalist paid by the Government. “In vain I repeated that I was paid by no one, that I did not seek to embellish the killing machine, that I did nothing but react to its sadness, they would not understand. It is important to say too that much emotion was in the air surrounding the wall.” More that an hundred people had already died while trying to go over the wall. The atmosphere was violent, very heavy. In spite of the screams and insults, I went to the head of the painting, every day without respite, covering with his friends a distance of more than 5000 meters in five years.

21) What was the artistic connection the people had with the wall? 

Before the end of the wall most of the Germans just ignored the wall. They just did not want to see it. A little bit like today just once or twice a year with relatives or visitors. The wall was technically transformed into a big canvas and me a clandestine painter. Because of the East German sentinels armed with machine guns it was necessary to paint fast. The sentinels guarded the wall night and day, standing inside watchtowers placed all around West-Berlin. Instinctively I chose simple figures, fast of execution.

22) What did the art on the wall itself represent? 

The paintings on the Berlin wall are a symbol of new found freedom after the reunification of Germany and the end of the cold war. The fall of the wall in 1989 was not only symbolic. It cleaned the Berlin atmosphere, released the sky and drove out town several phantoms of the past: not all of them but several.

23) What was your goal in the work that you did on the wall? 

This is a celebration to the eternal youth. Every new generation comes and try to make better than the parent have done before. The motto was: 2 ideas 3 colors you mix the all and that’s it. From the very beginning, people asked me immediately a lot of questions. That’s how I realized that I had started something special, and to stop it would bring me one more question: “Why did you stop painting the Berlin wall?” The most frequent question was: “Why did they want to make the wall beautiful? Why did they want to ornament the Berlin wall?” I answered each time: “I am not trying to make the wall beautiful because in fact it’s absolutely impossible. 80 persons have being killed trying to jump over the Berlin wall, to escape to West-Berlin, so you can cover this wall with hundred of kilos of colors, it will stay the same. As David Bowie said in his song Heroes (1982):”You can be heroes, just for one day”. The colors have eaten away the concrete segments like acid, trying to bore enormous holes through it so that the monster will fall down. I wanted to cover the wall with colors to wrap it up with paintings, to make it luminous to show it like a mutation in the city, mutation in the art and in the nature. In the no man’s land behind the wall lived hundred of rabbits.

24) What does it mean to you today?

After the end of the wall, in 1990 Berlin wanted to get rid of this wall as quick as possible to rebuild the city like it was before. The paintings now have another goal. Because of the wall is painted so it stays longer in the city. The paintings are an alibi to conserve to wall because it is painted. I am sure it will be since a long time gone if the wall would not have been painted. It is important for the young generations that they see the Berlin Wall, to realize how horrible that border was, to make them taking conscious, to think about not to do the same mistake one more time. The wall was not just a painted concrete wall but a deadly machine, a sort of big crocodile ready to kill people at any time.

25) Is there a generation gap regarding how people remember? 

Like always there is a difference between generations regarding how people remember. The young generation who grew up with that new liberty cannot understand what that time was with a 42 kilometers wall in the middle of the city. The old generation has the duty to explain that life with a wall in a way that the young generations will not repeat the mistake of the past.

26) How do Berliners reflect on their history? Is it a story of pride, or a story of misery behind the wall in East Berlin?

Memories have short legs, so most of the people let those memories to the historians. After 19 years it is just some memories for all those dissidents who have spent years in the special jails of the Stasi in the GDR.

27) Another interesting point is the brick path in Berlin that traces the path of where the western side of the wall used to be. Was this done as a monument to memory? 

It is a simple way to mark the followings of the wall along the city. The wall had such a complicated trace that it is today, even for me, difficult to recognize where the wall was.

28) Do you feel differently about it now than you did then?

Yes now it is not dangerous anymore to paint the wall. Nobody dies at the Berlin Wall anymore. It is not one of the best guarded borders of the world any more. The air over the Berlin wall is a little bit funnier now.

29) Your painting on the wall was “a sort of physical reaction against the pressure of the daily life near the Berlin wall.” There are numerous ways that you could have responded to that pressure; why did you choose painting? What is it about visual expression on the wall that made painting a more appealing option than something destructive such as, for example, throwing rocks at it?

I choose to paint the wall because it was a non violent action. During all those years before 1990 I never try to insult the GDR wall-guards or try to smash any empty colors pots over the wall. Why to throw rocks on to a 6 inches thick wall made of concrete? I just followed the path of Gandhi. I think I was right because those colors have eaten away the concrete segments like acid. People have been hammered heavily on the wall, making holes through it, making holes so big that at some spots, like Checkpoint Charlie or the Reichstag, it was possible to pass through those holes and paint the back side of the wall.

30) When you painted on the wall, were you thinking about communicating any certain message to others who would see it?

I never try to give any “message to the world”. I let everybody interpreted by himself/herself what they see on my paintings. It is funny when some persons recognized an uncle or a cousin when they see my paintings. I never say to them that they are wrong.

31) You’ve stated that some of the Berliners were upset about your painting on the wall because you had “entered into direct relation with the killing machine.” Why do you think they felt that way? Did they want everyone to ignore the wall? And how did it effect you knowing that your art was upsetting the community that lived around it – did you feel some kind of responsibility about that?

The wall at that time was a kind of taboo for a lot of Berliners. Most of the West-Berliners never came near the Berlin Wall; expect maybe 2 or 3 times a year for the official celebrations (like August the 13th) or to show it during the Berlin visit of relatives or friends.
By painting the wall I met often some passers-by or people from the neighborhood. The most frequent question was: “Why do you want to make the wall beautiful? I had to explain each time: “I am not trying to make the wall beautiful because in fact it’s absolutely impossible. More than 80 persons have being killed trying to jump over the Berlin wall, to escape to West-Berlin, so you can cover that wall with hundred of kilos of color, it will stay the same. One bloody monster, one old crocodile which from time to time wakes up, eats somebody up, and falls again back to sleep until the next time”. After the success of the film of Wim Wenders “Wings of Desire” those questions became gentler.

32) Your paintings were definitely perceived as political, especially since, as you said, “everything you do on the wall is immediately political. Even if you just piss on the wall, it is a political act.” But did you have a political motive in mind behind the paintings when you created them? Was your goal to make a political statement, or were they more of a natural human reaction that then took on a political significance because of the context?

There were a lot of political slogans written on the wall, so I follow my style which was different. I try not to imitate any body. This is homage to the eternal youth. Every new generation comes and try to make better than the parent have done before. I found the “Kilometart” (Art by Kilometers) that allowed to cover a considerable amount of surface in a short period of time.

33) What was it that first attracted you to the city of Berlin?

I came to West Berlin in January 1982 inspired by the music of this city. All the artists I liked at that time were in Berlin: David Bowie, Iggy Pop, Nina Hagen and all the new wave movement. I said to myself: “Why do they all go to Berlin and not to Lyon where I was at this time? So I have to find it by myself, just to go there and see why.”

34) What was Berlin like when you arrived?

Then I left France by train, on January 21st, 1982, from Lyon to Berlin. I did not had a return ticket with me, if yes I would have returned maybe immediately back to France, because when I arrived at 6a.m. after 21 hours of train at the West-Berlin train station “Bahnhof Zoo”, my first impressions were the smell of the urine inside the station and the cold and grey morning. I could not understand a word. I was really frightened. I had no round trip ticket, so I remained. At the end of one week, I realized that everyone around me was an artist. Then, when somebody asked me if I were artist too, I say to him: “Yes of course”. I did not want to be the idiot of the village or to lose my face, perhaps that the others would have not spoken to me anymore if I had said: “NO”. I said to everybody that I am a multi-talented person. I can do everything: I can sing, play guitar, roll me on the floor, write poems, play drums and of course paint.

35) How did the division in Germany inspire your work?

It was like I felt into a big box of creativity which was West-Berlin at that time. Indeed, at that time, to protect yourself from the artificial life of West-Berlin, surrounded by a wall, it was necessary to be creative. With the help of this creativity you could feel alive and not fall into a sort of soft melancholy. I arrived in Berlin in January 1982 but I started to paint the wall at the end of April 1984. People believed that I was paid by the city of Berlin to decorate the neighborhood. Very often I had to stop to paint and explain that even if one paints hundreds of kilos of paintings on the Berlin Wall, the wall will be never beautiful because over 100 persons died already. Some people believed that I came purposely from France, for one weekend, to make the city more pleasant for the tourists. Gradually the passers-by understood what I wanted to say but with difficulties, because the complete covering of the Wall with paintings was something new in Berlin. Everything that is new disturbs a little.

36) What was the initial public reaction to your work?

People at the beginning of the paintings on the wall thought I was engaged by the city of Berlin to make the wall attractive for the tourists: I repeat again and again to them that it is not possible to make the wall beautiful because it is a death machine which has killed over 130 persons in 28 years.

37) When you went back to restore your work in 2000 what was it like visiting the wall again?

I passed by car almost every day along the East Side Gallery at that time. My house the youth center “Georg von Rauch-Haus” is very near so it was not a big thing to repaint the East Side Gallery wall in 2000. That house was very much closed to the wall. When I arrived to Berlin, I did not know anything about the city and the first time I saw the wall, I found it small. I said myself: “What! This is the Berlin Wall!” I had in my mind a 10 meters wall, but in fact it was only 3.60 meters high. I understood later that the power of this wall lay in its width. It was a machine to kill, and very well organized: a band of ground of approximately 50 meters broad, the death strip, closed by 2 walls, one in the east which could be seen in a distance and one in the west which could be touched and painted.

38) You were living in Berlin when the wall came down?

Yes I spent the all night of November the 9th at Checkpoint Charlie. It was amazing. I could see thousands of adults crying and laughing at the same time. The drink of the night was the Wodka Gorbatschow. It was a crazy time!

39) Is there any theme that links your work?

Freedom is the main theme in my work. I am happy to have a work without any chef who tells me what to do. This is why I became an artist.

40) What advice would you give to someone trying to break into the industry?

Each person is a one-way street. This is an advice of Andy Warhol. Do not imitate anybody or you will end again a wall at the end of the street.

41) How has art changed over the years? And would you say it’s a positive change for the industry?

Graffitis of the eighties are now called Street art. The street art makers of today consider me as a master. The illegal art of the past is now everywhere around the world even inside Museum.

42) You say everything a person does is political and clearly painting the Berlin Wall in the 80s was political. In what way(s) are your paintings at the Village Underground political?

When you paint on the street you change the city where the citizens live. So you make politics. Politics (from Greek politikos “of, for, or relating to citizens”) is the art or science of influencing people on a civic, or individual level, when there are more than 2 people involved.

43) What reaction do you hope to inspire in those looking at your work?

The village underground big mural that I painted with Stik changes the neighborhood, in good or in bad. It depends how you like at it. You are free not to like it. We are in democracy. The term democracy originates from the Greek (demokratía) “rule of the people”,which was coined from (dêmos) “people” and (kratos) “power” or “rule” in the 5th century BCE to denote the political systems then existing in Greek city-states, notably Athens; the term is an antonym to (aristocratie) “rule of an elite”.

44) How did the collaboration with STIK come about?

I met STIK in Berlin in October 2012 when he visited my atelier. We decided immediately that I had to come to London to Paint on the streets of Shoreditch.

45) What artists do you rate? Any in particular in East London? Who/what are your favorite Artists/Businesses in the area? 

I like all the great Street Artists of East London: RUN, Christiaan Nagel, Zomby, Cityzen Kane, STIK, Dscreet, Phlegm, Conor Harrington, Pablo Delgado, REKA, Kid Acne, Mad C, ROA, Ben Wilson,  Ben Eine, Broken Fingaz Crew and so on. 

46) What constitutes great street art in your opinion?

For me a great artist is somebody who is at once recognizable.

47) Do you feel some newer artists get into street art for the wrong reasons – eg to make profit? And if that is the case, is the future of street art under threat?

Street Art is everywhere. The advertising companies use Street Art more and more in their ads. This Street Art movement is too big to stop it. What was graffiti in the 80th`s is now Street art: One global movement. Even in China there are Street Artists now.

48) For a man who has achieved a huge amount, are there any cities you haven’t yet painted in that you still have ambition to work in?

I would like to paint something in New York City.

49) These days, is there a situation comparable to living in a divided Berlin in the 80s? 

Since the Berlin Wall is gone: New Walls all around the world everywhere. Sometimes they call this new wall: Green Line or Peace border. Every wall maker says: Please do not compare our wall with the Berlin Wall. Our wall is a good wall, but the Berlin Wall that was something bad.

50) What do you still hope to achieve with your art?

Liu Xiaobo, Nobel Peace Prize 2010, wears a T-Shirt that I made in 2001 with the Checkpoint Charlie Museum: Le Dialogue. I hope Liu Xiaobo will come free soon.

51) Tell us about your art: What do you do? What did inspire you to start? 

I started to paint in an industrial was the Berlin wall in April 1984 until the end in 1989. It was really special to paint on a deadly border. The wall was built 5 meters behind the real East-West line, so by painting the wall I was in East Berlin officially. I never try to give any “message to the world”. I let everybody interpreted by himself/herself what they see on my paintings. It is funny when some persons recognized an uncle or a cousin when they see my paintings. I never say to them that they are wrong.

52) What is innovative about what you do? 

Each person is a one-way street. This is an advice of Andy Warhol. Do not imitate anybody or you will end again a wall at the end of the street. The wall was technically transformed into a big canvas and me a clandestine painter. Because of the East German sentinels armed with machine guns it was necessary to paint fast. The sentinels guarded the wall night and day, standing inside watchtowers placed all around West-Berlin. Instinctively I chose simple figures, fast of execution.

53) What were your most successful projects/exhibitions so far or what projects did you enjoy the most so far?

Graffiti or degradations of the eighties are now called Street art. The street art makers of today consider me as a “master”. The illegal art of the past is now everywhere around the world even inside Museum, like my painted pieces of the Berlin Wall. They are in museums now: Wende Museum in Los Angeles, Newseum in Washington D.C., Allied Museum in Berlin, National Museum of the USAF, in Dayton, Ohio.

54) What are your future plans?

Freedom is the main theme in my work. I am happy to have a work without any chef who tells me what to do. This is why I became an artist.

– Thierry Noir